Renegade Entrepreneurs of the Pacific Northwest, Episode#7: Sales Vs. Marketing

Sales Vs. Marketing Smackdown

  • What is the difference between Sales and Marketing?
  • What is qualitative and quantitative planning?
  • How can a small business find the balance between marketing and sales to achieve its business goals?

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Renegade Entrepreneurs of the Pacific Northwest, Episode#7: Sales Vs. Marketing

Keith Eneix brings it on this REPWN Episode#7 dissecting the difference between Sales and Marketing and how it can help your small business.

With Keith Eneix and Jesse Stoddard.

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Show Transcript

Jesse Stoddard:             00:07                 

Welcome to another episode of Renegade Entrepreneurs of the Pacific Northwest I’m Jesse Stoddard and with me is Keith Einix. Glad to be here. And this is episode number seven and today’s theme, we’re going to be talking about marketing versus sales and the differences and why there’s sometimes a little bit of a struggle there between the two and a little bit of a conflict. And you were going to talk a little bit about sales in particular. And by the way this month at the local GKIC meeting that we’re having here at Fannit that is one of the themes of sales and selling to the affluent and we’re going to tie it into a little bit what we talked about last time with the artificial intelligence and all the different things going on there. So anyway, let’s kick it off. Keith, I know you have some thoughts on this and you were talking about the qualitative versus quantitative planning and how it relates to sales and marketing and I would love to get your thoughts first.

Keith Einix:                       01:00                 

By the way, on a fluent. I was just thinking about our local area and I was thinking of a stat,  and I was just reading up that poverty level now in Washington state used to be about almost 50,000, so $50,000 a year if you did that, you were considered poverty level. Well, it’s now $75,000 and the average income in Washington state is $90,000. This is over a relatively short period of time. And by the way, Marysville I think was the top seven as far as increase, which, if you’re a local, you know Marysville is a very small town,  and it’s kind of out in the sticks, as far as north from Seattle. But Marysville had one of the biggest increases in wages in the US, while their average income level is about $90,000. Wow. Yeah. Isn’t that interesting.

Keith Einix:                       01:54                 

So when you think about affluent people in your local area, Snohomish County, more affluent people than ever are in our area. So that’s a big one. That’s a big one. Better get ready to roll out the bucks just to do any normal things. I know. I’ll get a level of 90 grand and anything under that, still make 75 grand. I mean poverty. That’s just amazing to consider that.

Keith Einix:                       02:23                 

The age-old battle between marketing and sales, age, old battle and of course we’re in marketing, but we’re also in sales. If you’re a business owner, you’re in sales, Jesse, you’re a business owner, you’ve been in business owner for many businesses, you know a thing or two about sales and that handshake, if you want to use that as a term that’s very commonly used, having a handshake between your marketing and sales is not an easy thing to do.

Keith Einix:                       02:51                 

Even if you’re running your own business, being balanced between your focused on marketing and you’re focused on sales is a very difficult thing to do.

Jesse Stoddard:             02:57                 

Yes. I think sometimes the conflict comes about because of the mentality required of each side. And they are, to me, two sides of the same coin because you need both and there-there is a crossover there and great marketing leads to sales and sales requires great marketing. So it is a, you can’t have one without the other if you want to have success. And a lot of times the salespeople that, in a real sales organization, they’re going to look at the marketers as,  ivory tower, pie in the sky, philosophical jerks that don’t really know what it’s like in the trenches and really know what it’s all about. All we really want is leads that we can close today.

Jesse Stoddard:             03:42                 

And these marketing people are doing branding and fluffy stuff or educational based stuff that doesn’t really equate to anything. That’s their perception sometimes. And then the marketing people look at the salespeople as the low brow idiots that don’t understand sophistication, right? So I think that that’s all bunk and ridiculous and it’s all based on miscommunication or misperception of what the roles really are. A definition of marketing that I like comes from Joe Polish. He is involved in that I Love Marketing podcast and a whole bunch of other stuff that,  really cool guy, and I’m not going to get it perfect here, but it’s something like, it’s the process of educating, motivating and positioning someone to be predisposed to do business with you. So, the idea is any activity that generates an interest in your business that then a compel someone to reach out to you.

Jesse Stoddard:             04:40                 

In other words, they raise their hand saying, “I’m interested in what you do, please, contact me.” That’s attraction marketing versus sales, which is the process of taking that person through the rest of the buyer’s journey and ultimately leading to a sale which is a close. And so you can see, it’s almost like, to me it’s almost like a continuum because it starts somewhere and end somewhere and yet it really doesn’t end at the sale because then you’ve got more marketing and sales because there’s the customer service. There’s the follow-up. There’s the follow through. There’s the continually building relationship for repeat sales, recurring sales referrals, which is all marketing and sales too. So it’s just, to me, it’s this big continuum that has so many interconnected parts that you can’t just say, well, you know, marketing is getting leads and sales is closing them all right?

Keith Einix:                       05:28                 

You know, that’s fine, but that’s pretty limited. Anyway, you had some more thoughts and I will say this, if you’re a salesperson, the greatest marketers out there are the best salespeople. They are. I think what happens is sales, you’ll get into sales and you’ll get focused on, well, my job is bottom of the funnel. And so when you, when I say that, remember our funnel, you know, upside down triangle and at the top, you have people who are just browsing and then middle they’re comparing you against competitors. And then at the bottom, they are buying. Well, the sales person’s job is basically to take it from a buyer and they’re given that sales qualified lead. So you have a lead and then sales qualified lead. We also have last week, if you listened to last week, if you haven’t, go back and check that out.

Keith Einix:                       06:15                 

We talked about the differences between prospect and lead or you could say a lead and sales qualified lead. There’s usually the, sales guys just focusing on sales qualified leads. And so that buyer’s journey that was before that does not have to be focused. That’s not the salesperson’s responsibility. They’re just supposed to take it from sales qualified lead across the finish line. And typically what we see is that 50 percent close rate on that. And so if that’s your focus and that’s all you have done, well you can kind of think a little bit. I’m like, well, you know, I know what I’m doing, but you know, well yeah, it’s easy when you’re just working with sales qualified leads and take them across the finish line, which you don’t realize is it’s a lot harder to take the people who you’re trying to qualify with your services.

Keith Einix:                       07:05                 

It’s harder to take that target market from a just a browser, compare to a sales qualified lead. That’s a whole other job that takes a lot of work as well, and so you will tend to find that it’s those guys who are the best sales guys who actually dig into trying to figure out that problem because they understand the messaging of the target market because they’re day to day trying to close, but then they’re trying to apply those tactics and principles in psychology to the rest of the buyer’s journey. But you have to balance both, right? They can’t just say, and, and I get this a lot with business owners who call in and say, Hey, I want more leads. You know, that’s, that’s what I call a quantitative goal. But then there’s a qualitative goal as well that you have to remember, like for instance, while you want a lot of leads, but what type of leads?

Keith Einix:                       07:52                 

What type of leads do you want? Who are you for that lead? How are you solving their problem? And one of the things I mentioned, just recently to a client was, “hey, you have a marketing plan, right?” A marketing plan though, is a qualitative goal that you need to have. It doesn’t turn into leads until you apply it. And that’s the quantitative. So let’s just say you have your marketing plan in place while you got to apply it now and maybe that’ll turn into your hundred leads or whatever, but you got to apply it. And so it’s still a qualitative goal until the actual application takes place.

Jesse Stoddard:             08:28                 

I’ve got an analogy for you, you’re going to like, because you like basketball, right? Yeah. I love basketball. So if you’re a salesperson and you are really good at what you do and you’re used to closing sales and you’ve been doing it awhile, you tend to focus on your job.

Jesse Stoddard:             08:42                 

OK? And so you don’t necessarily see the bigger picture all the time. You forget about it. And it’s just like a basketball team. Let’s say you’re the guy who loves to take the ball to the hoop and dunk it. OK, now what you do, what you tell your marketing guys is just give me the ball. I just need a ball right in front of the hoop, and so you think that what is there to marketing and you just get a ball that’s right in front of the hoop and I’d dunk it, but right there you’re exposing the fallacy of that, which is whoa! There was a guard that took it down the court. There was another guy that screened another guy so that a different guy could get open and receive a pass who then found a loop. You had to get around someone and then they had to pass to you at just the right spot so that you could dunk it.

Jesse Stoddard:             09:23                 

So when you’re a sales guy and ignore marketing, you’re basically saying the other four guys on the court don’t matter. It doesn’t matter and isn’t even there. And you see that so much. I love the analogy. Well wait one more. One more. Let’s say you miss the lay-up or miss the dunk. A lot of times you got someone get the rebound. You got someone boxing somebody out and get a rebound giving you another shot or another guy, a shot. Right? Right. Well, that’s akin to, we didn’t close the sale on the first call. So what’s our follow-up process in, in sales and marketing of it, not just sales, not just you making your follow-up calls, but what does marketing do to continue with that message in order to help you get the rebound?

Keith Einix:                       10:02                 

So there’s that one, man. I’m just going, but I love it. Yeah, basketball’s amazing. I love it. So many correlations there, I was going to do football, but I thought, basketball’s good, football is good too. But yeah, you know, that’s, that’s a perfect example. And how many times have you been on, let’s just say you did play basketball or any other sports that’s team, I played golf too, you know, a lot of golf. I mean there’s no team there so it’s just you. But there’s a lot of mental stuff in there, so that’s great. I was a big competitor in golf, but basketball, you know, you have that team mentality and how many times did you have that star player high score who got too focused on himself, too focused on their close rates, on shooting the ball and they didn’t give the rest of the team a try.

Keith Einix:                       10:52                 

What happens? Well, who wants to play with a guy like that? Who wants to play? No, that’s not a team that’s a star player. Give him the ball, feed him the ball, and that’s it. There isn’t really the, just the psychology of, hey guys, this is a team effort and I want to make sure like I’m staying in my lane, I’m doing my part, you know? Yes. We tend to score more. We tend to win more games when I get the ball in these scenarios, yes. But Hey, I want to make sure you understand the importance of your job. What does that, that’s leadership. You’ve got a star player in there that doesn’t understand how to lead the other players. It’s going to fall apart because those other players don’t want to, just feed him the ball and make him look good.

Jesse Stoddard:             11:34                 

And then he turns around and says, Hey, look, guys, I’m the best. And even when you have a Michael Jordan or Lebron or you have a player that can do everything like they do marketing and sales, which is rare, it’s rare to have somebody in a company that does marketing and sales. Some of them do it so business owners can pull it off. But even in that case, they understand that they need help. They need that team. Yeah, absolutely. Can you talk more about the qualitative, quantitative discussion? I think that’s another element to this.

Keith Einix:                       12:06                 

So qualitative, quantitative, we were talking about that just a little bit ago, just mentioned those words. And that’s a huge thing. Understanding the difference when you’re marketing a qualitative goal and a quantitative goal. Let me give you a classic example.

Keith Einix:                       12:23                 

Business owner calls me up. Usually, he’s sales focused, business owner, you know, their sales and there’s operations focused, love them both. There’s just a little bit different way. You got to come at fixing the problem with the different business owners. And what I really love is when you have a partnership that’s operations and sales focused, then you have two guys focused on solving that problem together. And that’s really cool. But anyway, so what do you do when you have,  somebody call, he’s a sales guy and, and you know, what are they usually saying? They’re saying we want more leads right now, usually the follow-up question as well, When do you want leads? Well, right now, OK, well, if they called me up saying, hey, I want SEO and I want leads right now, usually, I follow up with, well, you don’t want SEO because you need leads right now.

Keith Einix:                       13:11                 

That means you need something that’s direct response marketing and direct response marketing is great and that fills up your bottom of the funnel, that’s, that’s what you’re trying to do really fast, but direct response marketing is, is not the only type of marketing you should be doing. It’s going to hit a cap as far as the volume you can get and to get more into your funnel, you’re going to have to hit the other areas of your funnel. So usually I say in that case, well, you know, maybe paid search is a good way to start off with your marketing as opposed to just doing SEO. However, if you’re not doing SEO, takes about six months for that campaign to really mature. You’re not gonna have any maturity on that campaign if you don’t start now. So you know, there’s kind of like, I like to use referral marketing because that usually connects with a salesperson who’s gone out and try to make so many referrals and connections with people.

Keith Einix:                       14:04                 

When you made those referral connections, you weren’t getting leads right away, but look back now at all those connections. And how much they feed your pipeline of leads coming in. So that’s, that’s how organic works, right? So anyway, when I sit down and, and talking to business or like that, we talk about, OK, I know you want a quantitative goal of leads, but let’s back up a little bit. We have to slow down a little bit because we need to talk about who we’re going after. And it really has to do with the marketing plan, Jesse, right? You have to put a plan in place. So putting that plan in place is the qualitative goal, like a great qualitative goal is I want to be a better thought leader in my industry. People will respect me more,  and my sales, my close rate is going to go up because I’m a respected as a thought leader in the industry.

Keith Einix:                       14:54                 

So that’s a great qualitative goal. And then you have specific rocks you can carry to fix those. So that’s the difference between qualitative and quantitative. For instance, just consistently putting out content, right? That’s a qualitative goal that gets into a rhythm. But you’re not getting quality of leads just by putting out content. You have to do something with it, you have to push it out, you have to market it, you have to let people know about it. If you just do content, it’s not going to do anything for you, but it’s a good qualitative goal because now you’re in rhythm. I was talking to a marketer and they were saying, you know, the biggest problem with most marketing campaigns is people aren’t consistent. I agree. That is the biggest problem.

Jesse Stoddard:             15:43                 

You’re not consistent and you’re not then testing and iterating and changing based on what’s actually working. So I think it comes down to instant gratification versus delayed gratification. If you think about the process of a business owner being urgently addicted to an immediate response, I want, I need leads now I need leads yesterday. Well, that is a real concern and it needs to be solved. It does need to be solved. And so yeah, you do need the bottom of the funnel, as you say, direct response, paid advertising, then that results in a phone call right away. But at the same time, there’s always an example of somebody in every industry who doesn’t do any advertising, and this is the exception that proves the rule, which is, wait a minute, how did that, how did that doctor architect dentists, lawyer, attorney, or professional services provider, home services provider, how do they live without advertising?

Jesse Stoddard:             16:40                 

Some of them get a lot of leads, that’s what you’re talking about, they’ve spent the time, or the mortgage guy or the insurance guy or the real estate agent, they spent the time getting to know so many people who trust them, and they are the thought leader that they don’t advertise because people are just calling them and telling and referring with their friends. Well, that’s the ultimate goal for everybody. And in that case, advertising is the price you pay for not doing a good job of that. So ultimately, you’re right, you need to do both. You need to have the bottom of the funnel quick leads that you can rely on day in the and day out, but at the same time, you have to be building that qualitative stuff over time so that you don’t have to rely on that. Again, all your eggs in one basket is dangerous because if you’re relying on, that source of leads that you buy every month and then the source dries up then you’re at hot water.

Keith Einix:                       17:31                 

And you know, one of the things that happen within an industry, like I think of the classic, well, you know, there was only one general store at one time, right? Pioneer days, you know, only one general store in the little town. But why do they have to do marketing? Well, there’s stiff competition. Your employees become your competition, right? So now how do you beat them out? Well, you got to have a unique identifying factor that’s different from their business? And what do they often do? They try to copy you. And so you got to make that even more clear to your target market. And you gotta make sure they know that yes, this is the brand you want to work with.

Jesse Stoddard:             18:08                 

You know, so a case in point in the news recently just saw this today, Toys R Us is shutting stores everywhere and declared bankruptcy and it’s largely due to Amazon and Walmart and because they were an incredible company so profitable and fail to differentiate. And so there you go. Yeah, that’s a great example. So, all right. So until next time, we will see you on the next Renegade Entrepreneurs of Pacific Northwest. Thanks for joining us.